Marla: I wanted to talk to you today about sales and business trauma. How would you define sales trauma?

Michael: There’s a lot there! From the standpoint of defining sales trauma and what that means to me, is that there would be a sales interaction – whether I was selling something to you or I was on the other end and buying something from you – and somewhere in that interaction there was a violation of trust. 

Trauma, by definition, would mean that shift that occurred overwhelmed the system enough that now there’s lingering effects. So if I were selling to you and there was something in that interaction – maybe I felt as though you mistrusted what I was representing, or you felt like I was trying to manipulate or maneuver you – some violation of trust occurs. And in that violation of trust, there’s some bodily reaction, some physiological shift. 

And those lingering effects could be now that each time I approach another “sales conversation” – either as the person selling or the person buying – that interaction would trigger another bodily reaction that would move me into a threat-oriented, hypervigilant, reactive, defensive, physiological state that’s really primed to attack, defend, protect or numb out and just fold and disappear. 

That is what I would consider a sales trauma, is that there was some interaction in a sales relationship that now has lingering effects. 

Now when you even anticipate having another sales interaction on either end, it triggers a bodily response, maybe an attached narrative that feeds that bodily response, and now you’re in this loop of defense, threat, uncertainty, risk, more and more danger, distrust and disconnection. You experience less and less connection, safety, belonging, trust. To me, that is what a typical sales trauma response would be.

Marla: I know you work with people who are practicing the polyvagal theory and applying it to their work – people who sell their services in the world, who have good services and do wonderful work in the world – and they still feel uncomfortable in sales conversations. Can you speak to what’s going on for them?

Michael: Most certainly. It’s absolutely natural to have a bodily reaction that we might then label or interpret consciously as uncomfortable. And we do this in any interaction where there’s unknown, where there’s risk.

If I’m coming into a conversation in the hopes that it eventually leads to some transaction, some business relationship, there is risk. So it is absolutely natural that coming into that conversation would trigger some bodily reaction, which then we interpret as uncomfortable or overwhelming, as too much, and we can’t even go there. 

So the first part is to just acknowledge that it’s absolutely natural to have a bodily reaction to the uncertainty of what we might call a “sales conversation,” because it is a risk like anything else. It’s what the body’s meant to do. 

Now for me, the question is not, “How do I stop that from happening?” The question is, “How can I relate to that in a way that I can still navigate that feeling?” 

Maybe you tone it down a little bit,  maybe contain it in a way that creates playfulness or energy. Physiologically you give some organization to that uncertainty, which can provide enough vagal control of that unsettled energy and turn it into play. Or, turn it into at least enough certainty that you regain some control of that physiology, so that you can show up in a way that isn’t triggering more uncertainty, defense, or fear in the person you’re speaking with. 

That’s the goal: to first meet yourself where you are (“I have a bodily reaction to this conversation,”) then ask, “How might I relate to it in a way that my body welcomes, so that I can begin to actually navigate that conversation a way that doesn’t trigger uncertainty and threat and danger and risk in you?” 

And when we’re starting out, we will still trigger that uncertainty in others. We can regroup, or at least soften around the evaluation and the judgment of ourselves for coming up short. Then little by little, maybe we can change those patterns and reactions.

Marla: I love that. Let’s say somebody gets beyond the sales conversation. They say, “yes, we want to work together, I want to be your client.” Now they’re in the fulfillment phase. And in order to help people grow, you obviously challenge them and they deal with that uncertainty and risk. How do you navigate the balance between pushing someone too hard and understanding what they’re physiologically capable of in that moment?

Michael: With time and patience. You can’t push and challenge until you’ve built enough trust, and that trust is really in the physiology. It’s physiological trust. And then once that trust is there, then you can challenge them. 

The question is, how do you build physiological trust between you and the client as efficiently and as effectively as possible? 

That is dependent on the way the client is receiving how you’re showing up. It’s dependent on you and the client; it’s an interdependent piece.

Your primary job is to show up in a way that is actually accessible. And that’s witnessing where they are, first and foremost, and not cueing danger, threat, evaluation – any of those things – because as soon as they feel evaluated, as soon as they feel if they share something with you and “that’s wrong,” that is a cue of threat back to them. And now they’re in a defensive physiological state from which they will not receive whatever it is you want to help them with. They’re not actually building that trust. 

To me, the beginning is all about building trust, and that starts with you showing up in a physiology that’s prepared to be accessible: not prepared to say “here’s what we’re going to do,” but prepared to be more of a witness, and to listen and to be there. And then to slowly navigate what is actually going to be the foundation of trust. But until we build trust, which is in the physiology, I wouldn’t challenge them.

Marla: I hope every practitioner hears this loud and clear. This is why this work is so invaluable: there’s a lot of coaching out there that is very pushy and results-oriented at the expense of building trust.

Michael: For me, that’s what’s been helpful to build trust. Often people come to me because they’re in a high stakes environment, and things are breaking down. Things are falling apart. What maybe they used to be able to do they can no longer do: someone who was at the top of their game, and now all of a sudden (it’s not “all of a sudden,” but in their eyes, it’s all of a sudden), they’re having these amazing, really different reactions to the pressure.

Often people are coming to me with serious things on the line, and they’re confused as to what’s happening or why it’s happening. It’s been really helpful for me in that trust-building phase to simply hear what they’re experiencing, and then to help them understand physiologically – not intentionally, but reactionarily – why that’s playing out the way it is. 

By doing that, they immediately understand that I’m not judging. I’m just helping them understand why what they’re experiencing makes complete sense. They’re not weak, they’re not a failure, there’s nothing even to fix. It’s a matter of acknowledging, “yes, here it is, and I’m amazed that you’re still showing up. That’s incredible.”

For me, the beginning of building trust is listening and then helping them understand why whatever is happening is happening – without evaluation.

Marla: I’m so happy to be talking to you. It’s really beautiful to hear the lived wisdom. You can just feel the non-judgmental approach of wanting to help people understand why this is happening from a physiological perspective, so they can then make sense of all the other pieces that come into play. This is why the polyvagal perspective is helpful, because it’s just logical.

Michael: In [Dr. Stephen Porges’][4] language, “it takes away the veil of morality.” It takes away whether you’re doing something because you’re flawed in character, or whether it’s a bodily reaction and an adaptive strategy that we all share.

To me, that’s really, really helpful. As soon as we can take away that moral veneer and just see it as biology seeking a way to find some sense of “enoughness” or safety or belonging – and it may be in an adaptive way that actually isn’t

promoting that over the long term, an adaptive strategy that was more reflexive than intentional – that changes everything. At least from my own perspective.

Marla: Once someone understands that logically, how long would you say takes them to be able to have even more body awareness throughout their day and throughout their challenge?

Michael: It’s not a universal answer. It’s different for everyone. It depends how numb they are to their own bodily feelings. 

I don’t know if you have to get to a huge level of having such sophisticated awareness of little minute shifts and changes. I think you can start with just broad or dramatic things, or even start more outside the body and noticing behaviors that you’re drawn to, noticing what motivations you have or don’t have. You can recognize when you lose motivation, “oh, what might be behind that?” or you can recognize when all of a sudden you’re having a really powerful emotion. It doesn’t have to start with becoming really intricately aware of these little subtle shifts in heart rate or breathing or muscle tension or any of that. It can, and it depends on the person. But that’s not for everyone.

I work a lot with athletes, so it’s more natural for an athlete to recognize muscle tension or a change in their mechanics of whatever they’re doing, which is a doorway in. But for the average person, it might not necessarily start with bodily sensations. It might start kind of outside, more in their environment. It could be just noticing what they’re actually drawn to, or what they’re trying to do in a situation, or what kind of energy it is. Is it all over the place? Is it really amped up and a lot, or is it sort of moving away and dissipating?  It can be really more diffuse and less specific than heart rate, or breathing. And it can be a mixture.

I don’t have a set standard of what I’m asking them to start paying attention to. I ask them! Some people will notice, even in high level athletes, the sound they’re making is different. That’s a really great indicator. But it’s also something that many people might not be aware of. Some have no idea they’re making a sound, or might be aware of only a few of them, like they’ll notice their own sound at exertion is changing while they’re doing something. And that is a great mirror in, a portal in, to know if your physiology is actually feeling safe and in control and on your terms, or if it’s beginning to become defensive or reactive or overwhelmed.

Marla: That’s a question I don’t think most people consider: “Is my physiology becoming defensive?”

Michael: To me, that’s where you start.

Your question is, “do I, in this moment, feel settled and at ease? Or do I feel unsettled? Am I revved up but not sure where to go, or really zeroed in on making something happen? Do I feel like I want to either curl up or move along?” 

It’s not always that specific, but it’s very helpful information about how the physiology is being regulated in that moment in relationship to the environment, or to that interaction.

Marla: I’m curious about some commonalities that you notice or witness with people with sales trauma – people who have an allergic reaction, almost, to being in a sales conversation whether they’re the buyer or the seller.

We only work with people who do great work and care about their clients; they’re not just trying to make a buck, they’re actually providing an amazing exchange, yet they still feel uncomfortable asking for their fee to be paid. Can you classify some of the commonalities from a physiological perspective, and comment on the emotions or thoughts that might arise for people who have some sort of sales trauma

Michael: From the Polyvagal perspective, emotions, thoughts, behaviors, habits that we’re drawn to, the ways that we respond – those emerge out of the physiology. They sit higher up in the brain. The physiological reaction is actually being regulated more and deeper in the brainstem: what’s happening moment-to-moment as we are detecting the features around us, what’s already going on inside of us, relationally as we’re reading each other’s expressions and listening to tone of voice, seeing body language and movements, hand gestures, movements of the head, all of that.

What’s really cool is we’re not only recognizing all of that, we’re making these reflexive predictions as to what your motivations are for those movements, for those gestures. We’re decoding, and then we’re making these quick interpretations as to why you might be moving the way you’re moving. This is all happening beneath the level of our conscious control and awareness; this is reflexive. Our interpretations, then, change our physiology.

So what does that mean? It means that interpretation – which is happening without our awareness – is now shifting changes in our physiology: our heart rate, breathing, muscle tension, metabolic output, all of those features that are autonomic and automatic.

Then, most of us will notice that all of a sudden, we’re sweating, our body temperature elevated, or our heart rate changes. We’ll notice that our breathing shifted, or the sudden pit in our stomach, or, if we’re talking, that our voice changed. We’ll notice those things, and that is the conscious brain recognizing these reflexive shifts that occurred from these beneath-awareness interpretations of the motivations (again, that we’ve made up and are based on prior experiences).

During every second in a sales conversation, that’s what’s going on “beneath the scenes.”

And if we can just tap in, in whatever way we can, to recognize that those shifts are occurring – how our heart is beating, how our body is breathing, how much muscle tension we have – that can change how we experience that conversation. It’s really amazing.

So if it’s actually safe to be in that conversation, what might we do in the moment that our nervous system, body, and brainstem can actually welcome?

If it is actually safe, we want to do what we can to help settle that physiology and send other signals in that the brainstem welcomes and interprets as, “oh, you are actually okay.”

If the conversation is actually safe, yet you’re having these bodily reactions – again, you don’t know exactly why your nervous system, your brainstem, is making these predictions, there’s so much sensory information coming in through their body language and their tone of voice and facial expressions that you might think you have an idea, but it’s highly likely you really don’t know what’s triggering you – that’s okay.

Whatever it is you’re recognizing –  “I’m really perspiring,” or, “I’m starting to notice that I want to get out of my seat” – there is also, “And yet, I also know that this is actually safe, this is actually an important conversation to have.”

So you can ask yourself then, “How can I relate to this in a way that starts to settle my body and helps me trust that this interaction is actually safe to have?”

Marla: As you’re sharing this, I’m thinking to myself, that’s part of what we’re teaching at the Ethical Sales Institute: consent and listening to the response, not just asking for consent and then jumping in anyway.

A lot of our process is to keep both parties feeling safe; that there is a safe container to have a meaningful conversation where nobody’s going to be pushed in one direction or another, or influenced or cajoled in any way. That everybody gets to make their own choices, and this choice doesn’t have to happen in this conversation. It removes the pressure.

Michael: Yes, you’re creating the agreements, the boundaries. Let’s use sport as an analogy: You’re creating the rules of the game. You’re creating the perimeter that the game is played within. You’re creating all of which creates enough predictability and familiarity that signals to those primitive networks in the brainstem that you’re okay, it’s okay. Those are awesome, and you want to have them.

At the same time, you want to acknowledge that there’s still the elephant in the room, which is both of your physiologies in that moment and how those two are communicating, and what’s emerging out of that. So having all of the agreements and rules and what defines the “gain” of the interaction is necessary, but it’s not sufficient. Because there’s still the physiological and the neural interpretations of what’s going on that you can’t control.

We can’t control those variables; all we can do is work with how we relate to those shifts in ourselves. We can’t control their shifts, or even our own shifts, but we can begin to shift how we relate to those reflexive changes. And through the shifts and how we relate to them, we can, in a way, regain “control” of what is actually happening within our own physiology. Then we can at least align with our intentions of wanting to have an Ethical Sales conversation.

Marla: I love that. The idea of, how do we relate to our own physiology of navigating feeling what’s happening inside our bodies? Especially if we accidentally say something that offends somebody or steps on their toes, so now you’re dealing with that and down regulating while trying to hold the conversation and not make that worse. 

Michael: It’s both step one and step 100; it’s a loop. It’s always in the interaction, it’s always in the forefront and background.

Marla: I really love the word “relate;” I use the word “navigate,” and sometimes that sounds like you’re kind of trying to go around things. Relate, to me, feels more like leaning in.

Michael: It is; it’s “relating” because [the interaction] is changing and shifting, and that shifts and changes the interaction again, and then that shifts and changes the interaction again. Then you’re relating back to that. It’s a constant game of relay.

By creating all of the parameters and the “rule book,” you’re doing everything you can to structure the environment in a way that continues to send as many cues of – broadly – safety and certainty, of less risk, that you can. But there are still the physiological reactions to all kinds of things that we cannot control, and those prior experiences that the person is coming in with, and how their physiology is reacting to the anticipation of another experience.

Marla: This is why we provide the structures for safety as much as possible. And as we gain momentum with the Ethical Sales Institute, our students will be known as someone who sells safer than a regular sales conversation. And that already builds a foundation of trust.

This is kind of a fun question: How would you finish this sentence? “You might have sales trauma if…”

Michael: You might have sales trauma if you went to the Toyota dealership, and you tried to simply turn your vehicle back in after a three year lease. You had done everything by the books; you even called Toyota international and they say, “You have to take your car back to the dealer and turn it in. That’s how we do it now.”

So you take it to the dealership and turn it in, and say to them, “Okay, that’s all I do, right? Here’s the mileage on the car, I don’t owe anything more, right?” And they say, “Yes.”

So I go to the dealer, and the dealer says, “Okay, great. Give me your keys, let me do the final paperwork.” He goes back, does the final paperwork, and now there’s a charge of $1,700.

I said, “What’s this for?” He goes, “Oh, well, when you turn a vehicle in, we have to do this assessment, we have to do this and that, and then there’s a docking fee.” And I said, “Well, that’s actually not at all what [Toyota] International said. International said I’ve already taken care of that.”

We go through this back and forth; they end up making me sit there for over an hour. I eventually say to the manager, “I really don’t know what’s going on, I’ve sat here now for an hour, but I want you to know I have leased from from you guys, and I’m sure if you look at my record I’ve leased at least six cars with you over the last 20 years. And I really don’t appreciate any of this.”

He says to me, “Oh, you own a business? Because I see you leased this through your businesses.” I say yeah, yeah. He replies, “Well, you gotta do everything you can to make a buck, right?”

I say, “No, no, not at all.” And he goes, “Oh, well, that’s what we do.”

So he owned that he was trying to be dishonest just to make money. And I just said, “Well, just know I will never come back to you. Sorry, but I’m not paying anything. Here’s the keys. I’m leaving. And I’m really disappointed, in that I’ll never buy a Toyota here again.”

It was really unfortunate, but that would be a really good example of sales trauma. Because that experience was very unsettling, and I was very aware of my own bodily reactions, yet I’m still having a bodily reaction.

Marla: Can you describe what happened for you in your body?

Michael: I went into a very sympathetic,  highly mobilized state. I was really warm. My heart was racing. I was initially more angry: I didn’t say anything that was inappropriate, but I was absolutely revved up and mobilized and preparing to fight. And then as they played their games and I sat and wasn’t interacting, I was able to regroup and really settle and calm enough that I could go up there and actually have a very calm conversation, where I wasn’t having a bodily reaction.

But when he said to me, “You’re a business owner, right?” And I’m like, “…yeah,” that triggered a reaction again, but it wasn’t as intense of a bodily reaction as before. That’s why then I said – because that’s not something I would normally say either – that’s what triggered my saying, “I’ll never be a customer here again.”

If I was actually grounded, I may have said something different; I might have actually felt more compassion for him in that moment. But I didn’t. I still felt more like, “Okay, well, I’ll never be back.” And that was me retaliating, which isn’t necessarily how I would be if I had really fully regrouped.

Marla: What would you say instead if you were regrouped?

Michael: I could be like, “Wow, that really sucks that that’s how you feel you have to approach this way of doing business. Because in the end, my belief is that it’s going to harm you.” And I’m proving that because now I’m even sharing this with you. That ripples out in so many ways, right?

So if I really had regrouped, I could maybe have had a conversation and maybe helped him see that there is actually a different way. Because imagine having a reputation in the car industry – which has been so hurt by dishonest people – and how successful that business could be.

And, yes, in any business, we do need to make money. We have to! And for those of us that are really providing incredibly vital services to the world, yes, we have to get paid for that. Absolutely.

That isn’t being dishonest. That isn’t trying to get something from somebody while we’re not providing them with something. It’s a whole different relationship.

So it would have been great to regroup and have that conversation, and maybe Toyota would be different. I don’t know.

Marla: I’ve been smiling through this whole experience you’ve shared because yes! There’s ways to build a reputation in business that bring you amazing customers and clients that truly want to share your work organically in the world. And then there’s… other ways of being in business.

Your reputation is going to get built one way or another; building trust as the foundation of the relationship is what we teach and practice. And that’s obviously who you are, too.

And it’s also good to know that even you are having experiences of getting mobilized – like “I want to fight!” – and that’s just being human. There’s nothing wrong with it.

Michael: Right. Absolutely. It’s more about how you relate to it, and how you recover from it.  And, how you get back into some sense of, the world actually is full of good people, not just people trying to take advantage of others.

Marla: Do you think learning about sales trauma is important?

Michael: I think it’s important.

Because if you have a bodily reaction just in anticipation of selling the wonderful work that you’re doing to the world, if that bodily reaction is defensive and threat-oriented and survival-based, then you’re going to – whether you like it or not, whether you recognize it or not, for better or for worse – you’re going to be broadcasting how you feel into every conversation that you’re having around sales of the work you’re doing.

If you’re having a bodily reaction that we would call more of a threat-oriented, reactive, uncertain, unsafe bodily reaction, then as soon as you start talking about your work to someone, now that’s coming through your tone of voice in the pitch pace, the rhythms of your voice. It’s coming through your facial expressions. It’s coming through your posture, through your body language, through your movements, through all of that.

And that isn’t necessarily aligning with your heartfelt intention of actually really wanting to share your gift with them! So you’re interrupting your capacity to deliver your authentic gift to them.

It’s vital. It’s vital. Otherwise, they’re not going to actually hear your authentic message. They’re not going to hear your authentic voice. They’re not going to hear the passion, and what you’re really bringing to them. They might once they hire you, but they’re going to have to hire you based on other reasons because you’re actually unintentionally cueing risk to them. You’re cueing threat. You’re cueing danger. You’re cueing them something that they’re picking up on – and they may not recognize it – but they’re going to make up some story for what’s happening in their body. Their mind will make up some narrative as to what’s going on in their body that they may or may not be aware of.

And it might just be, “Wow. She said all the right things, but I don’t know. I didn’t feel comfortable with her. I can’t trust her.” That could be the story, and that is enough to not begin that foundation of trust.

So even if you’re coming into the conversation fully engaged to develop that foundation of trust,  yet you have this prior relationship that you can call sales trauma, then you’re simply not broadcasting that trust to them. It’s big.

Marla: Can you imagine a world where people are aware of sales trauma? A world where more and more business owners are practicing providing safe environments, learning how to regulate their nervous systems, and where businesses are getting reputations for selling in ways that are in high integrity and ethical?

What does a world look like to you when that is happening?

Michael: The world would feel a whole lot better, wouldn’t it?

How nice would that be, to actually trust when you walk into any business – where you actually want to exchange your money for the service or the product – that you wouldn’t have any thoughts of, “Am I getting a fair deal here? Am I actually engaging in something that will lead to a trusting relationship?”

Imagine having that feeling. That would change everything, right?

I have that with our gardener. We have such a trusting relationship. I’m like, “You want some water? Come into the house, help yourself. How much do I owe you?” I never even question how many hours, any of that.

Imagine that in every relationship that involves a business transaction, which is so much of our life. So much of our life is about transactions, and if they were grounded in felt-trust… it would feel amazing.

So not only would it look different, it would feel amazing. And it would feed into bodies that are healthy. It would feed into bodies that are now broadcasting more trust to one another. It would be expansive, and ripple out.

To me, it is really foundational. And it’s possible. It’s possible.

Marla: Beautiful. That is my vision. That’s what we’re doing.

From your perspective, what is the path of healing sales trauma? Let’s say you’re a professional or practitioner who does very good and vital work in the world, maybe a family law attorney or a financial advisor or a coach, a guide, consultant, a therapist – somebody working with confidential, sensitive, private information in fulfillment and really, really helping people.

What do you see as the path of healing sales trauma for people who are doing good, vital work?

Michael: I think it’s the same path of all healing.

From a Polyvagal perspective, what healing really is is being able to have those bodily reactions – those shifts in how we feel, those changes in the way our nervous system is regulating our physiology, the shift in your internal environment, whatever you want to call it – to be able to have it and not get swept away by what it might mean. Or without it attaching to a prior experience and association, and then feeding into it to where now you’re snowballing into a cycle of more and more defense, more and more attack, more and more protection, more and more withdrawal.

Instead, you can have that beginning of that feeling. You can recognize it. You might pay attention to how it feels, and then you can relate to it in a way that doesn’t feed into it, building and building and building until you’re completely gone.

That’s the beginning of healing. It’s the beginning whether it’s in sales, whether it’s in any type of relationship where those physiological reactions are occurring that we would consider threat-oriented or defensive or protective. Instead, we get just a taste of that feeling. We can see it happening and not get swept away by it, and recover just enough.

And little by little, over time, maybe that reaction is less intense. Or it’s there, but maybe it doesn’t overwhelm us or spiral us into that overwhelm, or lift us up into exploding and saying and doing things that we regret.

But it’s not about stopping them. It’s not about never having them, that’s not going to happen. It’s really about the flexibility of having those bodily reactions – those things that we call triggers – and being with them, and then recovering. And sometimes not, sometimes you still will erupt, but then coming back to yourself because you understand this is what’s going on beneath your intention, beneath your character. And maybe that gives you a chance to regroup.

Marla: Would you expand on what it means to be resourced?

Michael: Resourced in my language just means that you have specific people in your life, even pets, that you can go to when you’re feeling those bodily reactions, or you have things that you draw on within your own body – whether it’s your breath, whether it’s your posture, whether it’s moving your attention to something that you can do internally – that will bring in more features or cues or signals to the nervous system to settle.

Resources are Who or What will my body welcome in this moment that will actually calm my physiology down enough that I can be here and get closer to who I really am, and how I really want to show up?

Again, only if it’s actually safe and I can still be here, if it’s not I need to run, or I need to fight, or I need to go – if it’s actually okay and I want to be in this relationship, or sales interaction, whatever it is. Then it’s resources personal to me of who or what are those things, faces, or places that can downregulate those defenses?

Marla: Beautiful. I know that you went through some of our training, and I’m curious, from your point of view, how do Ethical Sales practices – like Humans Over Transactions, Sell The Way You Serve and Celebrate Choice – address or help “solve” sales trauma?

Michael: I think you’re helping create the framework that, from those very primitive survival networks in the brainstem, are giving us more of an opportunity to trigger safety, and that reflexive reaction of, “oh, I’m actually okay.” Because you’re giving us a plan, you’re giving us strategies, you’re giving us framework. And when you give choice to the customer, you’re doing that for them as well.

You’re setting up the parameters that in business cue psychological safety. That, to me, is what you’re doing here.

You’re creating parameters that provide psychological safety, that provide physiological safety, and that ultimately creates this foundation for physiological trust, which is really the essence.

It’s psychological safety and physiological safety coming together to form physiological trust.

Marla: “Physiological trust.” I like that. Could you expand on that term more?

Michael: I’m playing around with that construct. Because to me, that’s really what it is: physiological trust is a certain way that the body is being regulated in that moment. And physiological trust can be trust between [Self], but also it can be trust as the person selling the service. It’s the alignment of our body and mind in our competency and what we’re providing.

That’s why I like that word, because it’s actually in the body and mind of you: this physiological trust where you trust that you’ve honed your craft, you’re ready to deliver that craft, you know that you’ve prepared. Everything’s there. There is thinking, there is intention, and there’s a felt sense of trust.

And then when it’s in any interaction, it’s, “I trust this relationship, I trust this interaction. I trust that I’m giving this to you and you’re receiving it, and I trust that we’re going to jam on this.”

Marla: That’s what we’re after. I didn’t realize that’s what I was doing.

Michael: That’s what I think we’re doing. That’s when a coach and their student are in their jam, it’s because all parties have their own physiological trust in their own competency, their own skill set, their own practice and preparation, and they trust that they’re together in that experience.

That’s what I’m playing around with. I love it.